The premise of this book is that French parents, mainly mothers, are far less stressed and neurotic than their American counterparts, and have much better-behaved children. There are some ugly things about French culture (at least Parisian culture) which I think Druckerman does a decent job of demonstrating, but there is some very sound advice in there. If you don't want to read the book and want to know what the takeaway is, let me simplistically sum it up for you: Don't be a doormat. Settle down. Your children are far more mature and capable than you think.
I like this book and am buying a copy for my shelf so I can improve my
own parenting as well as recommend the appropriate sections to the other
people in my life. If you guys want to talk about some of the lessons in the book, whether you've read it or not, here's a place we can start:
Let's talk about childbirth. I often hear the U.S.'s approach to childbirth derided as overmedicated, and we would be so much better off if we just used more natural, traditional methods of childbirth--that's why our infant mortality rate is the highest of any industrialized nation (I have no idea if that statistic is correct, it's just what gets repeated). But the French culture is far less friendly to doula/midwife/birthing pool/unmedicated childbirth, has a higher rate of epidural use, and yet has a lower rate of delivery complications and infant mortality. Discuss. My own suspicions: it's at least partly due to maternal nutrition.
Well, I posted a rant and lost it. Maybe that's a sign I shouldn't rant. I have definite thoughts about childbirth and infant mortality in the US. Overall, infant mortality is an indicator of the health of the nation. Women who are poorly educated, low income, and have limited access to healthcare have a much greater incidence of infant mortality. I agree that nutrition is a big issue. Poor micro-nutrition and obesity are related issues. Limited access to good healthcare is a tremendous issue in infant mortality. The French have one of the best healthcare systems in the world, in that everyone has access to good healthcare. It is certainly, IMO, much better than the US. Some experts actually think the French have the best healthcare in the world. I don't think the issues regarding actual childbirth are as important as the above issues, but epidurals are generally much safer for the baby than general anesthesia or injected medications. Epidural anesthesia does not reach the infant, so it does not affect the baby adversely. High infant mortality is as much a social failure as it is a healthcare failure. It reflects the health of the nation, and ours is abysmal. I am ready, as you can see, to discuss!
ReplyDeleteGood! Me too. I was flabbergasted by her depiction of France's health care. Is it that way country-wide? How do they make it work? I would love an unbiased report on the whole thing, because here in the U.S. you have two camps, the "Socialized medicine leads inevitably to governmental oppression" camp and the "Anyone who doesn't want socialized medicine is an ignoramus" camp. I'd like a little less rhetoric, a little less intractable adherence to previously held conceptions, and a little more willingness to experiment with different solutions until we develop the one that will work best for the most people.
DeleteI don't think, for example, that anyone who opposes the individual mandate is a heartless monster who wants all poor people to die, nor do I think that everyone who supports it is secretly trying to enslave the American populace to a bloated, corrupt government ruling class.
But back to the childbirth thing--I really don't like how women who do choose epidurals are made to feel like they cheated, and I don't like the sniffy piety from women who did without the epidural. I think it's another symptom of our American psychosis; that the privileged among us tend to overanalyze and neurotically fret about our children's lives, starting from conception, and we can't even tell the difference between legitimate concerns and hypochondria.
Flabbergasted about French health care in a good way?? I assume that's what you mean.
ReplyDeleteI liked her chapter on childbirth because the French attitude so completely mirrored my own. At this point I'm mostly amused by women who fetishize birth and she had some incredible stories of this.
On the other hand, I was kind of pouty about the French "stay skinny while pregnant" attitude because I was unable to do so. They are very severe! I have a Latin grandmother and many Latin female relatives and they are exactly the same way and it's no fun. They are very candid and critical about weight issues and this is one area -- obesity epidemic aside -- where I prefer the American attitude. Leave other people alone! Especially pregnant women.
Okay -- what about the creche? And the public nursery school?
I badly wish we had these. I worked when my kids were little and I sent them to daycare, but finding a daycare I trusted was really hard and there was no support at all for this decision. If you really loved your kids, you stopped working, or you got a nanny. . .
But I had my doubts about nannies. I just did. I knew how impatient and bored I got with my own children and I worried about someone who didn't love them so much being stuck with them all day, not making a whole lot of money. So I agree with the French preference for good, regulated daycare.
Yes, flabbergasted in a good way. Ditto your feelings on fetishizing birth and weight judgment.
DeleteI am conflicted about the creche and nursery school. I don't like the idea of my kids being in someone else's care for so long when they are very small. But I am able to stay home with them, and many others aren't.
The way it seems to work there sounds wonderful, and there seems to be a higher societal value placed on the work, which would ensure a higher quality of care, one would assume. It would be great if we had trustworthy care available to all. I wish we did! Did you get the impression, as I did, that not all of the creches and nursery schools were as good as hers? It seemed like she alluded to the fact that in some neighborhoods they are not as nice, and the good ones are terribly difficult to get into. That seems similar to the U.S., and is the only thing that gives me pause about what looks to me like an obviously preferable system.
I first got interested in the French health care system after seeing Sicko, but you know MM is prone to hyperbole, so I researched it myself. I can't get the link to work, so Google "the french lesson in health care business week", and it will take you to an article that explains how it works. I certainly understand the desire for less rhetoric. It seems that is all American politics is these days. We discuss everything in an emotional context ad nauseum. No facts, just emotion. I should disclose that I am in the "free healthcare for everyone" camp. I have stopped using the human suffering argument since most Americans seem to believe that everyone gets what they deserve. (Do people really believe that? Incredible!) I worked in health care for 40 years, so I have some experience in this area. Anyone who goes to an ED must receive attention. It is the law. Notice I call it attention, not health care. You can either provide efficient, low cost care in an office or clinic before people become seriously ill, or you can provide inefficient, expensive care in an ED when people require a tremendous amount of resources. A lot of chronically ill people who cannot get insurance practically live in the ED. It is their only option. I am not exaggerating. Someone must pay for all this, but I won't get into cost shifting and how expensive that is. Americans need to stop employing magical thinking about this. It's simple, as many other countries have shown, but the decisions are made on facts rather than consideration of special interest groups. The French have better health care, and it costs less.
ReplyDeleteNatural childbirth has some merit, but so does general surgery without anesthesia! The object of many of those arguments is the search for moral superiority. The choice between a painful birth experience and a joyful one seems to be an easy one to me! I think most of those who choose a painful one are either ill-informed or neurotic. Some may have actual medical reasons, but they are definitely in the extreme minority.
Hope this comment is not off-putting. I am a woman of definite opinions in this area. I think it is tragic that our citizens are not better informed. Shame on our politicians and the fourth estate!
I think most Americans do very little research into what foreign health care looks like before forming an opinion. I will look up that Business Week article, because I am fascinated by the French model--if it is as much better as it seems.
DeleteMandated ER care is not the law in all states, I think, but I would have to research.
I think "free health care" is a misnomer, because it has to be paid for somehow, whether with taxes or insurance premiums or whatever. And I see why people compare the individual mandate to forcing someone to buy a product, but it's a product everyone will have to use at some point. It is not okay for someone healthy to refuse to pay into the system they're GOING to use someday, unless we as a society say it's okay to refuse to treat them when that time comes. So however we pay for it, I think everyone who's going to use it needs to chip in. And as you say, earlier is better, before the conditions get drastic and costly.
If I could trust our government to competently manage such a system, I would endorse it with few if any qualms.
Replying to/arguing with myself:
DeleteBut how do you ensure that everyone is paying? What about homeless people and illegal immigrants? They'll receive care, so how do you make sure they're paying? Pay for it with sales tax?
Also, once everybody's in the game, does that make insurance providers obsolete? Because I think that's a good portion of why our health care costs so much now.
Don't you find that some of your best discussions are with yourself? I do! LOL! I will admit to being puzzled about why you think it would be a good idea to have child care available to everyone without cost but not health care? Do you value child care more than health care? By the way, I agree with free child care. Most Americans believe whatever they hear on TV, I'm afraid, and it's not always the truth.
ReplyDeleteWell, you cannot ensure that everyone is paying. You can ensure that most people are paying, but I think that is the case with everything. Homeless people cannot pay. (I could go on another rant about the fact that the majority of homeless people are mentally ill. Reagan's administration had an initiative to stop funding long-term mental hospitals. There are people who are mentally ill through no fault of their own. Should we let them die on the streets? Rhetorical question. We do.) A lot of illegal immigrants paid cash for childbirth at one of the hospitals where I worked - CASH. I would like to see how many Americans would fork over that kind of cash to get hospital care during a delivery. They did receive a discount, but they paid cash. Yes, I said cash three times. They came in with wads of it in their pockets. Probably made it mowing our yards and cleaning our toilets.
Yes, administrative costs are a huge chunk of the overall spending on care. People criticize Medicare, but their administrative costs are lower than any insurance company. I would be delighted to say goodbye to my insurance company, and I have great insurance. By the way, everyone over 65 has had universal health care since the New Deal, and no one who is receiving it seems to think it is a bad deal. It isn't cheap for the consumer, and physicians don't have to accept Medicare payment (although most do), but I don't understand the arrogant tone people use about universal health care. The US already has it for people of a certain age. Dick Cheney probably has it, and if he does, it paid for his heart transplant. Rich people are smart enough to know a good deal when they see it, and MC is it! Thinking about that will turn your head around backwards! It would not be a bad idea to expand MC to everyone. It's already in place. It needs refinement, but it works. Let's be realistic, no system will be perfect, but if it is a system that allows everyone who needs care to get it, it doesn't get much better than that.
Before I give everyone the opinion that I am a flaming liberal, I'm not. I consider myself to be a practical person, although I admit that I am progressive on social issues, simply because I believe/know that you either deal with social issues on the front end or deal with them after you have tried to ignore them. They don't go away. I do not want to take care if everyone in my home, but I think people should be treated humanely or they end up accosting me in the street. If I am too strident, tell me, and I will hush. I really enjoy the discussion. By the way, there is a federal law called EMTALA that dictates that everyone who shows up in an ED or presents within 100 feet of the door must be seen and treated. If you get shot 100 feet from the door, they have to come out and drag you in, no joke. It is not a state issue.
I have never heard of EMTALA! That is very interesting. See how we get misinformation just repeated to us all the time? And how I just assumed it was true that people can be turned away at the hospital door? Stupid of me.
DeleteAbout child care vs. health care--I don't think I prefer one over the other. I think I was just not explaining myself clearly. People should have equal access to quality child care and health care--I just am still thinking about how it is best paid for to ensure that everybody gets treated fairly. People in poor neighborhoods shouldn't get worse care than people in Park Slope.
Druckerman mentions in her book that the child care is paid for according to a sliding scale of what you can afford--I wonder if health care could work similarly. And why taxes aren't that way is befuddling to me . . .
Please don't think that I am begrudging the care that illegal immigrants get. I hate that we refuse to figure out a way to let everyone be here who will contribute to the benefit of society.
Oops, sorry, don't know what I was thinking. MC came about during the 60's. Lyndon Johnson put it in place after Kennedy was assassinated.
ReplyDeleteWait! What about Pamela Druckerman's argument that baking yogurt cake with your kids makes them more orderly and organized?
ReplyDeleteAnd what about how her book devolves in the latter half when she starts describing the chaos that followed the birth of her twin boys?
I haven't finished the book yet so maybe it comes back together.
And what about "bonjour?"
And the state-funded perineal rejuvenation?
I'm very glad my kids are past the daycare age. From the moment our younger child was born, I started obsessing about daycare. It was very stressful and what we ended up with was funky. Not bad, but really funky. He ate pork blood and learned to answer to Cantonese and in the end it was all fine and the caregivers were extremely kind, but it was also strange and unregulated. What I would have given for a creche! Or so I think. Who knows. Maybe it isn't actually any better. It just sounds so convenient and civilized. I'm pro-sliding scales on almost everything.
It is a very complicated issue, and you are not stupid! I enjoy this because I think you are very bright and well spoken/written. The amount of misinformation that is fed to us on a daily basis is appalling. I think you are explaining yourself very well, I just misunderstood. I hope we all discover what we really think in discussions such as these through the free exchange of ideas/information.
ReplyDeleteThe way taxes are established is completely befuddling to me as well, and I don't have any expertise in that area. I am not in favor of regressive taxes, and I would like to see a flat rate tax, but that's just my opinion. I do think sliding scale payment systems are a good idea. Things that you have to pay for are valued much more than things that are free, I think.
I do want to make sure that you know that I haven't forgotten this is YOUR blog, and I don't want you to feel I am high-jacking it. I am sure if we move on to another subject, my ignorance will shut me up. I don't want to wear out my welcome, so now I will shut up!
Beckster, no worries. You are not hijacking. It's a mess, a mess that wouldn't exist if people were decent.
ReplyDeleteNow I guess we should talk about some of the other topics in the book!
Yogurt cake--I am going to make this with my kids as soon as I have some empty 6 oz. yogurt containers. It sounds good! I firmly believe in teaching kids how to cook, early on. I don't know if it makes them more organized, but it makes them more self-sufficient.
Her post-twins life sounds sort of awful, and I get the feeling that she and her husband are still not very happy with each other. Sad for them. Twins are hard. This brings us to the topic of the creche--what do people do who don't have multiples or special circumstances? How do they get into a creche?
I like bonjour, and am trying to do a better job of having my children greet familiar adults--I think it is nice for them to feel like they're part of the larger society, and to be treated as full members of it.
The perineal rejuvenation sounds embarrassing. Maybe it's effective, but to me it is housed in the larger area of androcentric privilege that seems prevalent in France--the "Is Monsieur happy?" question that they ask at her postpartum checkup is very telling. But maybe I'm being sensitive.
Yay sliding scales!
Thanks for the reassurance. I am obviously going to have to read this book. I agree that children should learn to cook some things and learn while they still think it's fun. It's sad to grow to maturity and find you don't know how to take care of yourself. Well, this perineal rejuvenation sounds interesting......! Actually, in days past, the OB/GYN would put in a extra couple of stitches when sewing up episiotomies to keep the mister happy. I wonder if women ever get asked if they are enjoying sex after birth? I don't think you are being sensitive. It's offensive to suggest concern for one partner over the other. I am still reading Handmaid's Tale in snatches, but am almost through with it. Are you going to tell us what you thought about it?
ReplyDeleteYes, this week I'll post my notes. They're not highly insightful or anything, but it'll give us a starting point for our discussion.
DeleteIs Monsieur happy? That was a good line.
ReplyDeleteI made yogurt cake on Sunday night. I made the recipe from the Chocolate & Zucchini cookbook (PD quotes the author) which I've made before. It is such a good cake; I put rhubarb in it.
Zucchini, rhubarb, and yogurt in one cake? Sounds interesting. Can you taste the rhubarb?
DeleteOh no, just rhubarb in the cake. The name of her blog is Chocolate & Zucchini. That would be quite an unusual cake!
DeleteI wanted to add-- there are things about the frenetic, supercharged American style of parenting that I think are an advantage. I like that we (ideally) are a driven, competitive society. I think when those qualities are channelled correctly we do a lot of good in the world.
ReplyDelete